A Story by Marine Assist that has some good info...

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http://www.cumberlandtowboat.com/id21.htm

Salvage Nightmare



The salvage nightmare; a true story, unfortunately.


Here is a story most people can relate to regarding “you get what you pay for”.


Recently, a houseboat owner on Dale Hollow Lake in TN. had the misfortune of his boat sinking in the slip on a cold February night. The boat, and older steel hulled 57 footer, slipped beneath the surface taking with it the slip’s finger piers on either side, finally coming to rest sideways under the neighboring boats in 30’+ of water. The marina manager tried to contact the vessel owner, but it was the weekend and the owner was out of town and unavailable by phone. The marina keeps insurance records on all the slip holders, so he called the boat owner’s insurance company to alert them the boat had sunk, was leaking fluids and in the process of causing more dock damage. The insurance company responded by coming up with the contact info for a diver from a nearby county that dabbles in raising sunk boats now and then when he is not at his real job. The insurance company authorizes the diver to recover the boat, in an attempt to minimize any further cost associated with the vessel sinking, even though no one has been able to speak with the boat owner yet at that point. The diver shows up and gets a contract signed by the insurance company to raise the boat and begins the work. At this point, other than some odd circumstances relating to the authorization of the work, all seems to be going OK.


The diver begins his work and gets airbags on the houseboat and suspends it in the water, but realizes he does not have enough equipment to fully float the boat. He then tows the partially sunk boat to the marina’s launching ramp with the marina’s jon boat. The assumption here is they can put the bow of the houseboat on the ramp and put all of his liftbags on the stern to get the deck above water and pump the boat out. After 4 hours of pumping, the diver decides he does not have adequate equipment to lift the boat high enough to successfully pump it out and re-float the houseboat. At this point the diver makes the decision to deflate the airbags and sink the houseboat on the marina’s launch ramp, remove his equipment, present his bill of $6,000.00 to the insurance company and head to the house saying “there ya go” to the marina manager!

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On Monday, the owner of the boat finally receives the message the boat sank over the weekend and the diver had the boat to the ramp on airbags. The owner immediately made the 4 hour trip to the lake to deal with the issue. When he got to the marina, the diver had already left with his equipment and the boat was now sitting on the lake bottom, on the launch ramp. He was not aware of who attempted to raise the boat, what the cost was, or what was going to happen next. The marina wants the boat off of their ramp, as it is blocking boat launching. The boat is still leaking oil, as the diver did not have any oil spill containment equipment. The insurance company has notified the owner his policy did not have enough recovery cost coverage to pay for the diver’s services, so the balance would come out of his settlement, even though he never approved the diver to begin with. The houseboat is sitting sunk on the ramp of a marina that does not have the capability to haul the boat out of the water to begin with and the road leading to the marina is such that a large truck and houseboat trailer cannot get down it to get the boat out of the water even if this diver had managed to get it to float.


The boat owner now has to go back and start from scratch. He calls the next closest marina, which has the ability to haul the boat out and do the repairs. They suggest he call MARINE ASSIST to get the boat raised properly and towed to their marina where it can be removed from the water. At this point, I was given the owners contact info and the process starts….. the right way. I call the insurance company on the boat owner’s behalf and start unraveling the mess created by the diver that thought he was a marine salvage company. At this point, the owner has told the diver he obviously was unprepared, under equipped and therefore abandoned the job, at which point the diver informs the owner of the boat he has 30 days to complete the work! Wrong! He is lucky to have 30 hours when pollution of the water is an issue, not to mention blocking a public launch ramp. The diver then says he would be willing to “walk away” from the job for a discounted fee of $4,500.00. The boat owner informs him to take it up with the insurance company, as they were the ones to hire him and that another professional marine salvage company would clean up the mess.




So let’s discuss how things are supposed to work.


First of all, an insurance company cannot (or is typically not supposed to) hire a contractor on your behalf, unless you have specifically waived that right in your policy. The reason is because there is a serious conflict of interest surrounding the issue. It is in the insurance company’s best interest to get the job done, no matter what the job, as inexpensively as possible. This is not always in the isured’s best interest. An insurance company is there to cover your loss, not dictate how your remedy should come about. Always remember the item being worked on belongs to you, not the insurance company. You have the final say of how, where and when service and repairs will happen, as you will end up still owning the boat when the work is done, unless it is a total loss. Whether or not you are fully covered for any particular event is in the policy you accepted and paid for.


When you own a boat, you own it until title is transferred to another person, period. If you sell a boat and hand the buyer an open title, you are still responsible for that boat until the transfer is complete. If the buyer does not title it for 2 years, you can still be held responsible for that boat and whatever happens to it. With that being said, no one else can authorize work on your boat but you. The only exception to that is when you sign a slip agreement at a marina, you may sign away some of that right in the case of an “emergency”. Check you slipholder agreement to see of there is a clause regarding this. Basically, if your boat becomes a danger to other boats or property, the marina may have the right to take action on your behalf, depending on the slip agreement. The other exception to this is for marine salvage, and that is all subject to salvage laws.


Just because someone is a diver/fireman/EMT/weekend warrior, etc. and owns a couple airbags, that does not mean they are a marine salvor. I run up against this all the time and it is bothersome.


A marine salvage company:


1) has the correct equipment for the job they undertake;


2) has experience in the field;


3) has proper insurance for salvage operations and pollution coverage;


4) can provide all the things necessary to do the COMPLETE job of salvaging a vessel;


5) works with a “no cure-no pay” contract, so they only get paid when successful;


6) performs the job effectively and with a complete plan to finish the job properly considering the ENTIRE PROCESS;


7) is available 24/7/365;


8) has approval from the Army Corps of Engineers to operate on these lakes


The reason we are in the boat towing business and available year round, 24 hours is so when there is a sunk or sinking boat on the lake, we are there, ready to respond. The two services go hand in hand. In my opinion, you cannot offer one of these services without the other. The insurance work is a big part of the profitability of the business model, so when a jackleg diver gets involved who has another job outside of the marine world and comes on to the lake with no insurance, inadequate tools, lack of experience and takes a couple “easy” boat salvage jobs away, it is not right, especially when they bite off too much and things like this happen. The same goes for these morons that send a gasboy in a pontoon out to tow in a stranded boat with no insurance, no experience, no license, etc. It hurts the viability of the company that IS actually doing business the right way and following the rules to provide ALL lake users the comfort of having us there WHENEVER you need us.


Think what you want of me and MARINE ASSIST, but still in the back of your mind, you always know we are here whenever you call and I will always do the right thing without question for all concerned to the best of my ability. If you have any doubt I do not know what I am doing in the towing and salvage field or think my advice and interpretation above in incorrect, I ask you to take a look at the pictures page of this website where you will find a link to photobucket.com and look over the hundreds of pictures of my resume. People have called me an “opportunist” due to the type of business I run. I am simply providing a legitimate, needed service. The real opportunists are these unprofessional types showing up now and then with minimal investment when there is an insurance claim and doing half-assed work at the expense of us all.


The story above has yet to be resolved, but at this point the boat owner is not responsible to pay the charges from the diver because the insurance company wrongly authorized the work without his consent. If he had hired the diver, he may still have not had to pay him because he failed to raise the boat. (BTW, this diver charged more than our bill, which ours included the towing to the haul out marina!)


In my opinion, the insurance company should not pay the diver a dime because he failed to provide a remedy to the claim and abandoned the job. We’ll see how it ends up.


Do I think this will stop this diver from attempting more scab work here on the lake, I doubt it. What I hope is to provide a glimpse into a situation I hope a boat owner never has to go through, but if you do, at least you will have read this and have a idea of how things can go and how they should go.


Captain Don Hunter[/size]

[Pac22]

Being in the insurance business, although not heavily in boats.....here is my take.

Good story and excellent points are made by Capt. Don. But. Don says it's up to the owner to OK a company to do the work. Then it is stated that a sunk boat has 30hrs to be lifted if it is leaking oil, gas, etc. This story says the owner was out of town, un reachable... So is it not the insurance companies responsibility to try to get this boat up in a reasonable time frame to control as much spillage/damage as possible? Or are they just gonna wait until the owner says, OK?
I can tell you, if your house is on fire, the insurance company is not going to wait to figure out who you want to do the job to put out the fire.

Let's say the owner was on a 10 day cruise.......The insurance company is going to do whatever possible to try to resolve this situaion and minimize loss, they aren't going to wait for owner consent several days later..... Now, the insurance company isn't mentioned in this story so I can't give any insight on that. But most would not wait for owner consent (if they can't be gotten in contact with) to try to resolve this matter. And, fortunately, or, unfortunately for MA, it doesn't happen in this area enough for insurance companies to have information on file of who to contact in these situations( as I've said a billion times, we arent on the coast, welcome to the backwoods). If they were given the name of a "good ol boy" and that's all they have to go on, that's what they are going to go with. I don't like it either but it's the way it is. I would prefer they call MA and get it done right, and it appears in this case, a more reasonable fee from MA. So, the point is well made, just barking up the wrong tree. It's not the consumers fault if they are out of town and the insurance company is doing what they can to resolve the situation.....Just like everything else in the business.

Furthermore, if my boat were ever to take a dirt nap, given I was in town, I would submit MA's contact #
along with a couple others in the area that I know are capable of doing the job. I know the folks who brought up KR's Carver did a fantastic job. And we have the same insurance company. JMO

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So do people that have a slip need to make sure someone can be contacted before they leave to avoid this? I know with a house its the first department and that is it... after that they will let your house sit and rot. But for a boat there must be a good plan that have set to keep this from being an issue.

[Pac22]

So do people that have a slip need to make sure someone can be contacted before they leave to avoid this? I know with a house its the first department and that is it... after that they will let your house sit and rot. But for a boat there must be a good plan that have set to keep this from being an issue.

No dude. There is no set plan for boats. At least not the companies I deal with. But then I've only had 2 or 3 boats sink in my 12yrs in the business. There aren't enough losses to set up local claim offices to dispatch adjusters in a timely manner. Think about it,,,how many boats sink on LC or DH in a yr. Consider first the amount of boats. It's probably 1%, or less.

You might ask KRT how his claim process went...But I know he was quite happy with how Boat US handled his claim. I believe he got a call at 9am, and by the time he got there at noon, the boat was almost up. At the ramp and on a trailer a short time later at Gator II....I have no idea who did the work, but when I got there for the last part of it, they looked professional.

[MarineAssist]

Part of my point here was to point out an unusual circumstance. It is not very often or likely that an insurance company would ever be contacted about a sunk boat by anyone other than the insured. In this particualr case it happened and the vendor chosen was not qualified to do the job, probably unknown by the insurance comapny at the time. When the crap hit the fan, the first thing the owner says is he didn't choose the company. That leaves the insurance company to either pay the bill or fight with the unsuccessful contractor over the payment for the incomplete services.

If the owner of the boat had called that diver directly, he would have been responsible for his bill, depending on how that particular contract was written. Then when that guy was unsuccessful, the owner would have then had to hire someone else to finish the job. All of those costs would have come out of his settlement money for the claim. In this particular case, that amounts to more than half of the total coverage on the boat, and it still needs to come out of the water and have the engine preserved, etc.

In this case the insurance company admittedly made a mistake and agreed to handle the unsuccessful diver's charges, whether it be by paying it and writing it off as a loss, or negotiating the bill down, or litigation. It is an unusual circumstance, and one that costs all insureds. I would bet $$ that claims department will not make that mistake again.

The standard policy on insurance claims is the insurance comapny may give you a list of recommended vendors that they have personal experience with, or you may chose one of your own. Either way, it is the insured's choice. Personally, I don't think an insurance company should refer any company that does not prove they have the proper insurance, licensing, equipment and experience. All that does is create a problem nobody needs.

As far as getting on the job right away... this boat leaked very little gas. Gas evaporates pretty quickly, but even so, the marina encircled the boat with containment boom they borrowed from another marina. That is about the best you can do when the owner is not available. The diver had no boom whatsoever.

My comment about the 30 hours was in jest because the diver told the boat owner he had 30 days to raise the boat according to his contract. That was a joke. He told the owner he was coming back to finish, another joke. You do not pull all your equipment off a salvage job unless you are done, period. He told the owner he didn't have enough equipment to do the job. He should have know that before taking the job. It is another situation of rolling the dice and trying to make big dollars on the side with minimal equipment and business expense.

House fires have not a thing in comparison to this. Fires are put out by volunteers firefighter or paid firefighters. You pay for that service in your taxes, etc. Totally different thing.

As far as the contact issue, people never think about stuff like this until it happens. It would be great to have someone on a contact list to speak on your behalf if you were not reachable, but not too many think about that in advance. Kinda like buying tow insurance before you break down! LOL

[MarineAssist]

So do people that have a slip need to make sure someone can be contacted before they leave to avoid this? I know with a house its the first department and that is it... after that they will let your house sit and rot. But for a boat there must be a good plan that have set to keep this from being an issue.

No dude. There is no set plan for boats. At least not the companies I deal with. But then I've only had 2 or 3 boats sink in my 12yrs in the business. There aren't enough losses to set up local claim offices to dispatch adjusters in a timely manner. Think about it,,,how many boats sink on LC or DH in a yr. Consider first the amount of boats. It's probably 1%, or less.

You might ask KRT how his claim process went...But I know he was quite happy with how Boat US handled his claim. I believe he got a call at 9am, and by the time he got there at noon, the boat was almost up. At the ramp and on a trailer a short time later at Gator II....I have no idea who did the work, but when I got there for the last part of it, they looked professional.

Actually, ___, your company, Progressive, has an entire "Special Lines" division in claims that handles boat, motorcycle, and RV claims. The local Special Lines claims adjuster lives and has an office right in Somerset.

I helped train the very first Special Lines claims staff in Sarasota, FL years ago after working as an independant marine surveyor for Progressive and Nationwide for 3 years. I was the outside "professional opinion" those companies used to help determine cause on marine claims they were unsure on how to settle.

This claim in my story was not a Progressive claim. They would have never put themselves in that position, IMO.

[MarineAssist]

E,

The fix for this is two-fold. First, you need to know who you would PREFER to use for this type of thing in advance. Basically, have a plan. Next, if you know you are going to be out of contact for a few days, simply give the marina another number for someone they can call that knows what your plan is.

I know it seems stupid to devise a plan for something so rare, but here it is. It happened here. The bigger the boat, the more a plan is needed. This compounds as the boat ages. If I owned a steel hull, I wouldn't sleep!

[Pac22]

So do people that have a slip need to make sure someone can be contacted before they leave to avoid this? I know with a house its the first department and that is it... after that they will let your house sit and rot. But for a boat there must be a good plan that have set to keep this from being an issue.

No dude. There is no set plan for boats. At least not the companies I deal with. But then I've only had 2 or 3 boats sink in my 12yrs in the business. There aren't enough losses to set up local claim offices to dispatch adjusters in a timely manner. Think about it,,,how many boats sink on LC or DH in a yr. Consider first the amount of boats. It's probably 1%, or less.

You might ask KRT how his claim process went...But I know he was quite happy with how Boat US handled his claim. I believe he got a call at 9am, and by the time he got there at noon, the boat was almost up. At the ramp and on a trailer a short time later at Gator II....I have no idea who did the work, but when I got there for the last part of it, they looked professional.

Actually, ___, your company, Progressive, has an entire "Special Lines" division in claims that handles boat, motorcycle, and RV claims. The local Special Lines claims adjuster lives and has an office right in Somerset.

I helped train the very first Special Lines claims staff in Sarasota, FL years ago after working as an independant marine surveyor for Progressive and Nationwide for 3 years. I was the outside "professional opinion" those companies used to help determine cause on marine claims they were unsure on how to settle.

This claim in my story was not a Progressive claim. They would have never put themselves in that position, IMO.

Progressive my company????? NO I'm an independant agent. ...I Agree that this was not a Progressive, or a Boat US, or a UMI claim. That's all I can add. As far as being "my" company....I'm only an agent,,,,not an adjuster.......I need to be as CLEAR AS POSSIBLE....I am not an ADJUSTER...... But, in the eye of an agent, I see their point. So please tell me the solution to your problem...................

Was this a Progressive claim? Seriously, I would like to know. I do have reps that I would make this known if so.

[Pac22]

Just FYI...My Boat US policy covers MA's service for $36/yr......unlimited.........

[MarineAssist]

No ___, it was not Progressive. They do not handle claims in that manner at all.

The solution.... from an insurance claims standpoint? Maintain a list of known good vendors. Make them provide proof of slavage insurance, a list of AVAILABLE equipment on hand and ready, proof of credentials. Make sure that IF YOU HAVE TO RECOMMEND SOMEONE IN A PINCH THEY ARE THE RIGHT RECOMMENDATION. If there is no one available from that list in that area, the claims rep should have asked for a couple of these things prior to signing on with this guy. After he failed to produce these few basic things, a quick use of this new fangled internet thing called "GOOGLE" would produce an answer when you type in "marine salvage ky" or "marine salvage TN"

To be quite honest, the company in question does not have a large volume of marine claims and they work in teams, rather than having one adjuster assigned to a claim. Everytime I call them it seems as though I have to lead the way through the claim. Done it three times now with them.

[Pac22]

I agree with you, in theory,,But the reality doesn't happen that way now does it?..........No


I wish it did because it would save the consumer money. But we aren't corporate now are we? The only thing I can can do is give suggestions..

[MarineAssist]

Just FYI...My Boat US policy covers MA's service for $36/yr......unlimited.........

BUT, you have to pay for my services on scene when complete, wait to get reimbursed and you are not supporting the local service provider (Marine Assist Lake Cumberland and Dale Hollow) by sending your money to BoatUS corporate. The only time I would get any support from you with that policy is if you actually called me for service when you need it, which I don't think you ever would, otherwise you would not have posted the above to begin with. There ain't no Boat US towboat here, nor a Progressive tow boat, nor a Nationwide tow boat or any other tow boat from a company that sells membership plans. Just Marine Assist. Don't support it and maybe someday it won't be here. Then it won't matter who is paying for the tow 'cause there won't be anybody to provide the service.

It's a funny thing with you ___. My business has just always rubbed you the wrong way from the day I moved here. It was supposed to be an inexpensive ($95 per year), professional help service to boaters on the lake and a qualified resource for insurance companies for salvage work. Yet there is always your "or you could do this instead" or "this isn't the coast", or "we use friends here" or "there are several other comapnies".

Well, I am going into my 5th season here. Thanks for the love and support. Maybe I just take your posts the wrong way...... all of them for the past 5 years or so.

[Pac22]

You don't take my posts the wrong way. They are in direct response to yours. I feel you belittle the locals for not jumping on board with you and I take issue with that. If I'm wrong I appologize. But I've gotten too many private messages in support of my posts, even from your customers. Again I say, if my insurance didn't cover your service I'd be a member in a second.

[Pac22]

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[MarineAssist]

___, perhaps you would feel differently about my business if you were in my shoes.

Imagine starting a business from scratch 10 years ago, investing several hundred thousand dollars into it, quitting your job of 10 years to devote your full time effort to it, uproot and relocate your entire family 900 miles, all for the sake of providing a service that helps people when they need it. You call it expensive, but the yearly insurance works out to a little over $8 per month for 24 hours service year round whenever needed.

So far in 4 years you have called upon me twice when you needed help on the water, even though you say you can always count on the friends network. The first time you called MAYDAY on the radio you were on a sinking boat that we kept afloat for Bubbs. I showed up in 10 minutes with a pump. The second time you were out WITH your friends network and ran out of gas at 1am. I was there within a half hour and your friend has had a Marine Assist membership ever since. You won a free 1 year membership at the cornhole games, and still spend your money for this service somewhere else and promote it.

I never told people they HAD to have my service. I can't tow every boat on the lake, nor do I want to. I am simply an alternative when people want the best professional service. People will spend several thousand dollars on a boat, be anal about wiping it down and maintaining it, but when they need a tow they will throw a line to a boatload of drunks they don't know to bring them into a dock. I am the alternative.

Say what you want from here on, I am done responding. You and I will never see eye to eye on what I do. Just try and tone down talking me down, because when you call me again I will still come when you need me. It's what I do. It is just easier when I don't know how you really feel about it.

[Pac22]

First, the Bubbles situation. I didn't call you, I was calling for ANYONE close as we were sinking. Yes you saved HER boat and thank god you were there for that. Thank you. The second time, again, not my boat, I was the only one who had your number(that's right folks. 6 of us on board and I WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO HAD THE NUMBER).In fact if the boat owner would have listened to me, we wouldn't have run out of gas. I won't name names , But thank you again. If MY boat ever starts taking water, you will be the first person I call. Knowing my insurance will cover it. So I think we see eye to eye on that.
You think I'm talking down your business when that isn't the truth at all. I can't count how many times I've said your service is needed and appreciated. It's the attitude you take towards those who aren't a member that has always upset me(again, some of your members even agree with me).
People have been towed in by..."a bunch of drunks" since LC was created and it will continue. And it will be over a hand shake or a thank you, not $500. All I'm saying, and have said all along, is advertise your service, and let it go. Don't call people stupid everytime you don't get the job.

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[Islander_212]

Who's got the popcorn? Also, pitch me another beer!